An interesting interaction with a hyper-charismatic.

Posted: July 10, 2013 in General
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Today ends (i think) my interactions with a hyper-charismatic person who was supposedly having a conference/church service in which a woman was teaching the people gathered how to interpret dreams. I hoped to dissuade them from doing such a thing based on the fact that she is attempting to teach something, that, as they admit themselves, scripture is pretty silent on in regards to instruction. Further, as she is attempting to usurp a man in the teaching eldership role, I was hoping to address that part with them, however, the conversation was drawn to a close from their side of things.

What follows is a copy of the transcript of our interaction, I hope this will help people to see where the presuppositions are, and how to look for them and tackle them! Hope this will be informative!

Here is the transcript with a couple of edits for my poor grammar!:

Ambassador of Jesus Christ-Kingdom of God

3 July

Acts 2:8…………..Speaks In Other Tongues…..Powerful!!!!!

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the “HOLY GHOST”, and began to “speak with other tongues”, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Me:
I have to say I’m curious – what do you mean by an ‘annointing encounter’? Also, the woman doing some sort of teaching on interpretation of dreams – I’m wondering where this comes from in scripture? Can you point me in the right direction?

Many thanks and hope to hear from you soon!

Sunday at 18:10

Ambassador of Jesus Christ-Kingdom of God:
There are diversities of gifts (anointing) from the Lord but same Holy Spirit that works through us as willing vessels and this is done for the edification of the body of Christ. The same Holy Spirit (Acts 2:17-18) uses vessels to encourage or teach others in their understanding of prophecy and dreams. It is sad that many Christians still cannot embrace prophecy, visions and dreams, where in fact, prophecy, visions and dreams will be the major gifts that the Holy Spirit will use to highlight the Church of the last days. It is time to go back to the supernatural things of God and not be afraid of them. The church at large is so powerless because it has set aside or deemed unnecessary these Divine endowment. That being said, Christ should still have the preeminence and the center of everything that we do.

Monday at 00:18

Me:
Hi there!

Thanks for your response!

I would agree certainly with a number of things you’ve said, bit I would like to enquire about would be:

“The same Holy Spirit (Acts 2:17-18) uses vessels to encourage or teach others in their understanding of prophecy and dreams”

Can you show me where the teaching you are referring to comes from?

Also, as you said earlier that these are in fact ‘gifts’ – if it is a gift, it must surely be received to be exercised- not taught to be exercised?

Many thanks again!

Monday at 08:19

Ambassador of Jesus Christ-Kingdom of God:
I would advise you, brother, if you can, to just simply come to the meeting and see. We don’t have the luxury of time and space here, sorry to say, to entertain all your questions or inquiries or what might be. And by the way, any gifted person still needs to be guided and taught so he can grow and mature in his gifts. Thanks! God bless you!

Monday at 09:17

Me:
Yea, i don’t live in the USA, so I don’t think that will be happening.

I agree some people need to be taught in the outworking of spiritual gifts (1 cor 14). My question is which parts of scripture are being taught from to explain dream interpretation? Don’t need to give me a long explaination, just the references will do!

Many thanks for your time!

Monday at 09:19

Ambassador of Jesus Christ-Kingdom of God:
There are no Scriptures in the bible that would spell out verbatim what you want to know (you are already aware and learned of them). But, we believe if the Holy Spirit would be highlighting the last day Church with prophecy, visions and dreams, God would also raise up servants to teach and encourage along these lines. Better yet, my brother, pray and ask the Holy Spirit. He is our ultimate Teacher.

Yesterday at 00:17

Me:
Hello there!

Many thanks for your quick reply (apologies for mine being a bit late)!

I’m wondering, given that you’ve said that there are no scriptures that teach what you’re mentioning, what basis and source the teaching is from, and how you know it is true? I agree that prophecy etc exists today, however all things need to be tested against the word of God:

1 John 4:1:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

and:

1 Thess 5:20-21

20do not despise prophetic utterances. 21But examine everything [carefully]; hold fast to that which is good;

If we don’t have a standard to test the prophecy or the teaching against, to see if what we are saying is true, how do we know it is actually true?

Many thanks for your replies and time over this to clarify! It is helpful!

9 hours ago

Ambassador of Jesus Christ-Kingdom of God:
Yes, we are aware of these scriptures and warnings, thanks. The Holy Ghost will always guide us to all truth as we seek Him for guidance with pure hearts. Many Christians are still more afraid of the devil to deceive them than to trust the Holy Spirit to guide them and show them the way. We are prayerfully considering all these things. This will be our last response.

about an hour ago

Me :
Hi there!

Thanks for your response!

You said:

“The Holy Ghost will always guide us to all truth as we seek Him for guidance with pure hearts.”

I agree the Holy Ghost leads His own into all truth – the question is though, how do you know it is the Holy Ghost? I would submit to you that it is by testing what is being communicated by the standard of scripture, however, as you’ve already stated, you said there are no scriptures that deal with this topic, therefore you have no way of knowing that what you are receiving is of the Holy Ghost as you have no way of testing it by the very standard that He gave us in scripture.

Further you said:

“Many Christians are still more afraid of the devil to deceive them than to trust the Holy Spirit to guide them and show them the way.”

It isn’t a question of fear, its a question of obedience to the principles laid out in scripture. When scripture speaks of the following:

“1 Thess 5:20-21

20do not despise prophetic utterances. 21But examine everything [carefully]; hold fast to that which is good; ”

It isn’t saying that this is simply good advice, but that it is an absolute command to test *everything* – the problem is that you have nothing to test against. Therefore on this basis I would say that teaching something purely based on subjective opinions, or perceived revelations is a dangerous thing to do, with no ability to determine its origins. Therefore it fails the test of revelation itself : that can be tested. Therefore this is not authoritative and should not be taught.
The Holy Spirit always leads us back to Christ and the scriptures – what you are suggesting seems to fly in the face of that – that He doesn’t lead us back to the scriptures in regards to the teaching you are doing.

Finally, the principle itself that the Holy Spirit gives revelation for the purpose of teaching people things aside from scripture, or that cannot be tested by scripture is itself unfounded in scripture. I am sure if i asked what your basis for believing that principle is, you would say that the Holy Spirit told this to you – which is simply to beg the question and reason in a circle.

I agree that the Holy Spirit gives personal guidance to people about their own personal lives and choices, but that is significantly different from teaching other people based on these revelations. The teaching that should be taught is that which was given to us by the authors of scripture and nothing else.

Thank you for your interactions with myself, and as you said that you are prayerfully considering all these things, that you will indeed do so with all that has been said in our interaction!

I hope it has been a helpful dialogue and will be useful in the future!

Many thanks!

A

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Comments
  1. Hi,

    “I would submit to you that it is by testing what is being communicated by the standard of scripture, however, as you’ve already stated, you said there are no scriptures that deal with this topic, therefore you have no way of knowing that what you are receiving is of the Holy Ghost as you have no way of testing it by the very standard that He gave us in scripture.”

    Given this statement, what are the uses of “prophetic utterances”? If they are limited to what can be tested by scripture, then that leaves nothing of specific practical value. For example, if a prophet teachers that God is telling part of the congregation to open a church in another country, then they should ignore this.because it cannot be tested by scripture. What do you think?

    • Hey Paul!

      I should have perhaps made this point a bit clearer – thanks for the comment!

      The quoted section of my reply is in the context of the woman giving teaching from her subjective prophetic experience rather than the authoritative word of God. There is a difference between prophecy and teaching, prophecy in the NT is not authoritative in the same way as teaching is. What the woman here is doing is taking what she thinks is teaching from the Holy Spirit given by prophecy or word of knowledge, and then using that to teach Christians. This is a no go area because teaching in the NT has with it the idea of authority – it is absolutely binding on the person because of the nature of where it comes from, ie Scripture. Consider the following:

      Titus 2:15 (NASB)
      These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you

      or as the NIV would render it:
      These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

      Teaching is to be absolutely binding on a person’s conscience – prophecy is no where stated to be of the same level of authority.

      What does this mean for prophecy? As I stated in my post, I totally agree that the Holy Spirit gives guidance for people today both personally and corporately, however, that is different from teaching a new teaching that has no basis in scripture.

      The difference here is I think brought to light in an anecdote that Wayne Grudem stated in the video I posted here: He felt that God called him to cancel his subscription to a particular news paper, because he was spending too much time reading it. Going on he said that he believed that was a true prophecy and was from God, what would be wrong he said, would be for him to then go into his teaching class or pulpit and then teach that everyone should cancel their subscription to the news paper. Do you see the difference?

      In your example of a prophet telling the congregation that they are to open a church in another country – they shouldn’t necessarily ignore it, they can weigh it – but notice, he is relaying a prophecy here, not teaching as normative, and cannot take his prophecy and start a class or a conference on how every church should start more churches in other countries based on that prophecy alone. Further, to be clear, the prophecy itself could totally be ignored for the reasons I stated above – prophecy in the NT has no binding authority or necessity upon the consciences of the hearers because of its subjective nature. If it has been weighed and the person thinks its genuine, then they could act upon it, but they could equally weigh it and find that it isn’t genuine. Why this is different to what I stated above is simply the fact that the prophecy is being taught, rather than relayed as a prophecy to perhaps a smaller group, or an individual church, not as a masterclass to all Christians everywhere. Scripture is taught, prophecy is not.

      Hope this helps clarify! 🙂

      God bless you sir!

  2. Thanks for this Aaron!

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